KnifeForums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the knife enthusiast
Recent Members
Welcome them to our community!
Recent Topics
Recent Hot Topics
Recent Pictures
thumb_1407960593-1.JPG
thumb_1407750066-Crown_Stag_Skinner__1711_x_1140_.jpg
thumb_1407672353-1.JPG_big.jpg
thumb_1407641097-DSC_0004_1.JPG
thumb_1407270483-1.JPG
thumb_1407160770-20140802_103713-2.jpg
thumb_1406927116-10584106_907845969229455_2121226519465794003_n.jpg
thumb_1406729690-20140720_164427.jpg
thumb_1406560141-DSC_0018.JPG
thumb_1406365749-175-Honduran-Hunter-f.jpg
Current Quote
"There never was a good knife made of bad steel."
~ Benjamin Franklin
257 Online Now
29 viewable users (
    ) and 0 hidden plus 228 guests are online now.
    Username Post: They look cool but what is the purpose of the blade design?Thx.        (Topic#229609)
    bjavo
    Member
    *
    02-14-03 12:28.08 - Post#229609    



    They look cool but what is the purpose of the blade design?

    Thx.
     


    zr24x4er
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-14-03 12:43.15 - Post#229613    


        In response to bjavo

    thick all the way to the tip to penatrate steel body armor
     
    LordChunkyFat
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-14-03 13:24.39 - Post#229635    


        In response to bjavo

    Here you go man . The tanto was adopted in an interesting way. I am not going to be a historian but this is the truth i speak. Back in the day of the dynasties in China ,warriors would periodically break the top of there swords in combat or training. They would take the piece and fashion it into a knife hence the first tantos where born. They obviously have changed the original style of the tanto to a more aggresive "pointy" shape. If you are into originality ,any tanto that is shaped like a katana sword is old style. Every time i see a tanto i think of the history of the blade. Amazingly it stayed in the main stream as long as it did and THanK God. The purpose is tactical based. But i find tantos Very usefull utility knife because of its point. The point cuts in to things well and makes a perfect box cutter lol.
    --------------------------------- My screenname has no meaning.


     
    brianWE
    Member
    *
    02-14-03 13:37.53 - Post#229638    


        In response to zr24x4er

    In reply to:

    thick all the way to the tip to penatrate steel body armor



    I keep hearing that one. The tanto, I believe, was a knive to help a Samurai cut himself out of his armour in an emergency. The squared point was pretty rare, I think...possibly popular for a short period in history.
    I can't see how it would penetrate any better than the much more common rounded point. The shape used on modern, novelty tantos is an American fantasy and a marketing ploy.
    IMO, of course.
    Brian W Edginton
    I am an old bloke. Sometimes I forget things that happened. Sometimes, I remember things that didn't.
    When I post, you are getting the best I have on the day. Be kind.








     
    Gerald McDonald
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-14-03 14:56.43 - Post#229653    


        In response to LordChunkyFat

    Thats the same story I heard.
    Gerald
     
    Krizzard
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-14-03 17:38.55 - Post#229679    


        In response to bjavo

    One martial arts explanation
    http://www.ryokukai.com/chanbara.htm
    Yet other possible uses of the Tanto
    http://www.grandmaster.cc/tanto.php3
    http://indomaresa.tripod.com/weapon.htm
    But here is a great site on various types of Traditional Japanese Tantos http://www.angelfire.com/goth/silverscythe/tanto.htm

    IMHO, the Tanto probably first came about as utility knives fashioned from broken swords and other such ancient and long lost martial arts weapons. And as usual anything sharp and pointy could serve as a weapon as well. In time I suppose, they were specifically made in the order of its required length and shape once the proper techniques of its uses evolved.

    Just my 2 cents worth.


    Krizzard, out

    "...Whoever kills with the sword must be killed by the sword... "
    - The New Testament, Revelation 13:10
     
    dennis75
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-14-03 22:11.10 - Post#229718    


        In response to bjavo

    the tanto-design excels in STRENGTH. both the tip itself and piercing-power of the blade. if you ever break a tip of a tanto-pointed knife, you either bought a real cheap knife or you are way overpowered (buy an axe or something.......;-))

    d75
     
    papadops
    Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 05:23.59 - Post#229792    


        In response to dennis75

    I use a knife with the "modern tanto tip" for my everyday carry. I feel it is a better choice for a "utility knife". For me, this type is like having two blades in one. The main edge being one and the small edge that angles up to the point being the second. This front edge comes in handy when you don't have the room for a pull or draw cut. If I'm working in a tight space or only need a small cut made I use the front edge for a pushdown type cut or a short draw cut. It also serves for a perfect chisel-type cut when you need a square opening cut into wood or whatever. just my 2 cents.
     
    tsg68
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 09:51.30 - Post#229860    


        In response to papadops

    I would have thought that a tanto would have been a back up piece for a samurai engaged in combat and would have been used to penetrate the soft spots in a target, such as between armor plates or under armpits and inside elbows, where one could find and sever arteries and such. Would have worked well in a locked close in combat.

    I have seen tests where even the traditional rounded tanto point was proven to penetrate tough materials with less resistance than a clip or spear point and they also said that the wounds would have been more severe and life threatening due to the penetration of a larger cross section of blade. More like the sucking chest wound of a gunshot, less likely to close up and clot.

    But I guess it is all subjective now adays, there is not much real history on the subject.

    Regards,
    TSG
     
    Gerald McDonald
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 11:12.24 - Post#229888    


        In response to bjavo

    Not trying to start a ruckus but, the purpose of the current tanto is to sell knives. Dont know what else it really excels at
    Gerald
     
    tsg68
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 16:49.38 - Post#230003    


        In response to Gerald McDonald

    I thought it was because some custom makers held an interest in reviving and re-interpreteting a classical japanese design, and it caught on with manufacturers.

    As for their usefulness I think they make great knives for fine woodworkers as EDC's (especially the chisel ground blades) for wood joint layout and cleaning up the insides of corners. They would probably be great for skiving leather lap joints and loops as well as pattern cutting for leatherworkers too. I do think that the correct side to grind a chisel ground knife for a right hander is on the right hand side of the blade though, like Greg Lightfoot does. I used to use my Cold Steel Voyager Tanto to clean up wood joints and clean glue out of tight spots and for marking joints with a straight edge cause carpet knife blades were to thin and flexible and tended to grain follow. I used it to split out pegs and shims as well. I Didn't like the AUS-8 steel though, too soft, I had to sharpen the thing every couple days. I like the CPM steels now.

    I think if you are a Cop or a Soldier and face the prospect of facing a bad guy wearing a kevlar vest and there is a slight possibility you may end up rolling around on the ground with them (Mr. Murphy would probably be better suited to provide the scenario leading to up to this struggle) a well ground and tempered tanto blade probably would give you better odds of punching through said vest. I am not sure many Nam vets got close enough to the enemy to ever need a knife. But I'm sure plenty of WWII and WWI vets saw hand to hand in house to house and trench warfare ( hey guns do jamb, run out of ammo and can be knocked out of commission by being struck by incoming rounds and schrapnel right at the precise moment someone nasty is closing on you fast, right?). and it looks like we may end up in house to house fighting in Iraq. I think I would want something with a strong tip and good edge if I were a soldier today. Probably something like a Strider or a Wally Hayes Tanto, maybe that Timberline design by Ernie Emerson.

    I am never quick to write off any knife without exploring it's beneficial applications. Remember weighing pro's and con's?
    Any knife is better than no knife. And some are better suited to certain users who find them beneficial, even practical to their situations.

    Later,
    TSG
     
    Alan2112
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 18:18.57 - Post#230022    


        In response to bjavo

    Be advised, I'm to lazy to read all the post, but I think that there's two or more styles of tantos. There's the Japanese style, and American. I'll let someone else explain the differences, and uses. Sorry if someone else already brung this up! RKBA!
     
    Mike_aus
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-15-03 19:57.28 - Post#230038    


        In response to tsg68

    that just bring up images of the guy getting poked in saving private ryan. my chest is hurting again
     
    jackknife
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 02:14.50 - Post#230073    


        In response to bjavo

    They are to look cool and sell knives to impresional people. Really, the reason for the design is most likely lost in history, but keep one thing in mind; the Japanese were an isolated island nation and had very little contact with the outside world. Until the 1600's that is. They developed their own style without having to test it agaist others. They used swordsmenship refined in one way, agaist others using the same. Then the Spanish and Portugese arrived and stuff hit the fan very quickly.
    They got a rude introduction to the rapier and daggers of the Europeans.
    I forget the place it took place, but around 1608-1610 the local warlord got tiered of the Spanish trade outpost in his turf, and sent a force of 1200 samuri to wipe them out. A samuri who was a convert of the local priest got warning to them so the Spanish were ready. They numberd about 300.
    When the dust cleared the samuri had been slautered and the Europeans had some losses but were still there. Cleaning their rapiers.This was the start of the slide down for the samuri. In further fights with the Europeans the samuri always lost.
    What does this have to do with tanto's? The slim needle like point of a 1600's rapier would go right through samuri armor, as would the Mon Goeshe, the left handed dagger used with the rapier. In a much later war, WW1 much study was put into knives and bayanets for trench use. They had to have penetration to go through the heavy leather coats and web belts, ect. All reaserch came up with the slim rapier type point. Blades were triangular in cross section as were the 1600 style sword.
    Some members of the American Bladesmith Society have done alot of reaserch on blade preformance. Penatration tests on differant media have given clear results; the tanto point is mostly just hype to sell knives.
    During the start of WW2 a couple of gents from the Shanghi police force ( remember that was British turf then) Looked at all kinds of knives from the orient and rest of the world to design a knife for the newly forming British Comandos. They were Capt. W. E. Fairbairn and Lt. E. A. Sykes. On the basis of testing they came up with a design that was basicly a modernized Elizabeathen dagger from the 15-1600 period.
    Look to history if you want to know what really works. If something has lasted for centuries it must work pretty good. the Japanese stuff was popular for a short time in a small area. The flat slim point, double edge or single has lasted from the Roman Gladius and Carthaginian Spatha to the cammando daggers of WW2 to the Gerber Mk2 of Viet Nam.
    The tanto point?
    A fad to sell knives.
    Carl.
     
    VG10
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 03:52.15 - Post#230099    


        In response to jackknife

    Some years ago, I was asked to manufacture tanto blade versions of my knives by a US company, they said that they would sell like hell.

    I turned the idea down.

    I have very seldom found a tanto shaped blade to be better than a regular one, much often the opposite since a blade offers two qualities - a point and an edge. For hunters and collectors (which we've been for "some" thousands of years) a fairly narrow point and a curved edge should be the best combination for an allpurpose knife. And by that time, hunting and collecting were the prime occupation for us...

    I will never make tanto blades, it's not my style.

    Take care

    Peter
     
    tsg68
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 05:06.27 - Post#230120    


        In response to VG10

    Blade Magazine's April 2002 issue offers a great article on Tanto style knives titled "Japanese or American: Which Tanto For You?" In which the late Bob Egnath a former authority on the Japanese style said in a previous interview that Tanto translated literally means "a knife with a guard" and that the name had no bearing on the grind or tip shape, he goes on to list the shape names for grinds and purpose that were used on swords and knives. The article states that American makers produce both traditional style knives and the "modified" style knives and that both have their place in the knife world.

    Wayne Goddard the noted ABS Mastersmith and contributor to Blade has an excellent section in his book "The Wonder of Knifemaking" entitled "Taking the Mystery out of Chisel Grinds in which he states that he had trouble recognizing the benefits of a chisel grind until he met several makers at the 1996 New York Custom Knife Show and states that he views the subsequent differences in opinion that result as being similar to the differences that were apparent when the convex grind first became popular. He also goes on to acknowledge the benefit of a larger wound channel offered by the style.

    Just more food for thought.

    Later,
    TSG
     
    tsg68
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 07:30.04 - Post#230153    


        In response to jackknife

    Hey Carl,

    I heard that the reason for the Japanese style blade going into remission was not due to it's lack of proficiency in combat, but more because the new Imperial rulers outlawed the Samurai and the manufacture of their weapons as being representative of the former segmented Warlord driven leadership. Remember in WWII there was a push to re-establish that connection of the modern Japanese warrior to the old traditional Samurai? Every Japanese officer was issued a sword and unfortunately for many Americans and Filipino's captured in the surrender on Bataan and marched to their deaths, the efficiency of those blades was seen first hand in very horrific fashion.

    All that aside I personally first saw the utility of the chisel ground tanto the moment I first laid eyes on one (I could'nt afford one at the time). I immediatley noticed the similarity of the flat backed chisel ground point as being very similar to a French ebony handled traditional leather workers knife I had purchased for wood joint layout. Later one of my cabinetmaking instructors, who had been a student of the famous shoji master Toshio Odate produced a traditional japanese marking knife, of similar design to my French one, which had been a gift to him from Odate upon his completed apprenticeship. Same blade shape, a flat backed single bevel knife with a dramatic angle meeting in a point, only the Japanese knife was of laminated high carbon steel to a soft iron, folded and etched like damascus, while my French knife was solid high carbon. Then I had also seen a Japanese knife used like a small froe for splitting out bamboo and wood pegs, also chisel ground but with no point ground on it. It occured to me upon immediate inspection of a chisel ground American tanto folder that the design would take care of both of those uses while still remaining a very efficient pocket knife for daily use. I have not purchased one yet as I have yet to find a production version that is ground on the proper side for right handed use but have played with a beatiful custom made Lightfoot that if I had the spare dough I would love to own. I have also steered clear of the CQC-7 because I heard there have been problems with the pivots, washers and lock-up (which supposedly has been resolved now) and it is obviously ground on the left side.

    I mean, I have seen guys back East here who grew up using a stockman's knife, and still carry one who's eyes light up in horror when I tell them the knife was designed to turn a bull into a steer in a few short strokes. Most don't even know that because they never contemplated the name or origin. My Uncle who owns and operates a ranch in New Mexico still chuckles every time I bring up the fact that alot of guys don't know that. Sometimes the uses of a knife only become apparent with use and then sometimes the intended design becomes secondary to the multitude of newfound purposes. I believe that that is the case here and unless you haven't looked into it, or tried to apply it, you just can't see it.

    One more question that I have for alot of you guys is ( and I don't mean to offend anyone here, seriously), where did you guys get such a conspiritorial view of the knife manufacturers from anyway? I think lately the custom market drives the industry not the other way around, and while I have seen some of the Rambo types you guys talk about at some of the shows (they seem more interested in the Switchblade collecting than practical use knives) I see many more, search and rescue, emt, law enforcement, military, self defense and outdoor experts attending the shows and asking valid questions and requesting design changes to suit their applications than any pimply teenagers. I have been attending shows on the east coast pretty seriously for about six years now, and haven't really seen more than 2% of the total attendance of any show to be of the Rambo type you guys keep talking about. Alot of the discussion takes place between the makers and their competent clientel. The industry just follows suit to stay afloat.

    Thanks,
    TSG
     
    jackknife
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 08:10.54 - Post#230161    


        In response to tsg68

    The rulers of Japan took that course when they started diplomatic relations with the west, and that was about 1869 or so. By then the samuri was an obsolite leftover.
    If you study four or five thousand years of human history, things make a little more sense. Mankind is very, very interested in better weapons and tools to kill eachother with. One of the most inventive were the Romans. For the blades used by the poor SOB's that got trained for gladiators, they tried everything under the sun. Double edge, crusiform, quade, bodkin style. In a gruesome quest for efficaency the doctors/surgons of the day would even post mortum the loosers to see what did what.
    The most efficiant point was the long taper double edge.
    I have no doubt the tanto point makes for a good wood worker, after all it IS a chisel. I just don't think it is a very all around useful blade. In the thousands of years man has been forging steel, only one group of people came up with this design. and when they came out of the island isolation they were in for centuries, the European style stuff took over.
    As for the ideas of the knife industry- It comes from a lifetime of watching the knife, gun, automoble industry try any kind of hype to sell a product. Sure, I don't doubt the chisel blades sell well. Again, look at the SUV buyer. A semi-urban suburbanite, who will never take his stylish buggy of road, and by the third snowflake is home with the six loaves of bread and five gallons of milk from the panic rush at Safeway, and will watch video's for the duration of the storm. But they have been convinced by Detroit the SUV is the way to go. Same in any industry, hype it and they will buy. I've been going to knife shows for thirty years, and I've seen the trends come and go. And they all go at some time.
    And the spay blade of my stockman- I keep it dull, it's the right shape for a decent pipe bowl cleaner.
    Pass the rocky Mountain oysters. and a little horseradish if you please.

    Carl.
     
    Gerald McDonald
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 10:17.17 - Post#230195    


        In response to tsg68

    The reason I view tantos and manufacters like I do is based on VG10's statement that he was asked to make a tanto because they will sell well. Thats known as marketing. People will market things just for the money, not for actual usage. You buy into tanto's and thats good because it works for you. I have two tanto blades and they have been about as useful to me as a third ball would be. I agree a chisel grind is great if you want to mark wood, but all of my wood marking blades were about an inch long. Take what is called a tactical knife. If you like black blades and double guard liner locks thats cool, remember that liner locks have been around a lot longer than the term tactical. Again marketing, but for me I have seen too many using a scanadinavian blade with no guard to buy that you dont know what your doing unless your carrying tactical. I dont buy into fads without seeing proof they work, I tried a chisel tanto, for me it doesnt offer anything usefull and certainly nothing that couldnt be done with a more traditional blade style. If I wanted to pierce armor I would lean more towards a Pesh-Kabz or Salwar Yataghan as according to Bernard Levine the tanto's primary use was to cut ones self out of armor .
    Gerald
     
    tsg68
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    02-16-03 12:31.28 - Post#230233    


        In response to Gerald McDonald

    Howdy Gerald,

    I don't know if I would call it a fad seeing as it was Bob Lum that introduced the style to the U.S. custom market in the late '70's and I can recall being about 11 years old (I am now going on 35). when I first saw Cold Steels production tanto advertised in magazines. That would make the American style tanto a production phenomenon for 24 yrs., almost a quarter century. I though it was rare for a fad to last more than say 5 yrs. to a decade. I believe the folding tantos found favored use in operation desert storm which would be 12 yrs. ago. Not exactly a fad by terms of enduring time. I would have to say more of a newer style and proven by their users. Granted not all are great. Try taking a look at R.J. Martin's work or Wally Hayes or Don Polzien or Mike Snody. I had the pleasure of making a kydex sheath for a friend's(who is a martial artist) Wally Hayes tanto and found it, chisel grind and all, to be a very well executed design. These makers produce some great knives that do see use by the folks who buy them.

    I'm just not sold on the fad thing and have used some tantos to too good effect, to believe that they are just hype. Just like the tactical thing, not all of us use knives that come from the game/livestock processing background. And there are some good reviews of these knives on the reviews forum from folks that use a knife for different purposes than dressing game or whittlin' a bear from a branch.

    I don't see a lack of advertisement and marketing for any knife companies blades, whether they are traditional or otherwise, that's just the landscape of business now.

    As for the SUV comparison I haven't owned a car or had any major use for one since 1988 so that comparison is kind of lost on me. I walk or ride my bike, take public transpo or hire a car when I need one so I could say that owning a car is a foolish venture that polutes and wastes money and causes people to get fat, but I wouldn't because I still recognize their usefulness to certain members of society. Albiet most people drive like crap, nowadays and really should give it up.

    See Ya,
    TSG
     


    Icon Legend Permissions & Sharing Options Topic Options
    Print Topic


    37628 Views
    KnifeForums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the knife enthusiast
    KnifePromotions

    arenaro@verizon.net

    FusionBB™ Version 3.2 | ©2003-2014 InteractivePHP, Inc.
    Execution time: 0.41 seconds.   Total Queries: 312   Zlib Compression is on.
    All times are (GMT-12.0). Current time is 01:22.52
    Top